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Click here for discussion of the threat of closure (Oct. 2005) of a small farm in Lake City, west of Jacksonville, by Florida State officials
CONTENTS, most recent first:
64) RAISING NUTRITIOUS CHICKENS, H.S. Wong (4/08/05)
63) "GRASS-FED" CERTIFICATION IN CALIFORNIA, lizgriff (11/6/04)
62) AN IRATE 1-CHICKEN FARMER, No signature (7/2/04)
61) LAB TESTS IN MALAYSIA VS THE WORLD, HS Wong (7/1/04)
60) 15 MINUTES OUTDOORS IS NOT "FREE-RANGE" (6/10/04)
59) NO GOVT "FREE RANGE" LABELS; GO TO FARMS INSTEAD, Randy (5/23/04)
58) MEASURES FOR ERADICATING AVIAN FLU, HS Wong (2/7/04)
57) OMEGA-3 CONTENT OF CHICKEN, HS Wong (9/27/03)
56) HOW CHICKEN MASH WAS INVENTED, Robert Plamondon (6/7/03)
55) ENZYMES, PET, LADINO CLOVER - MISC FEED INFO, Chicken-Feed at YahooGroups.com (5/4/03)
54) PREVENTING WORM PARASITES, Robert Plamondon (4/28/03)
53) DOGS N CHICKENS, ChickenFeed at YahooGroups.com (4/22/03)
(I'm tickled pink! ---ks)
52) STICKY CHICKS OR STUCK CHICKS? HS Wong (4/9/03)
51) HEN TO ACCEPT BABY CHICKS -- HOW?, Kristine (4/9/03)
50) LAST DAYS OF INCUBATION, R. Bloch (4/9/03)
49) WILL CHICKENS EAT ANTS?,
ChickenFeed at YahooGroups.com (3/25/03)
48) TURMERIC AND GARLIC FOR CRD, H.S. Wong (3/25/03)
47) FEED ECONOMY DISCUSSION,
ChickenFeed at YahooGroups.com (2/23/03)
46) WINTER WASTE MANAGEMENT, R. Bloch (12/3/02)
45) WINTER WASTE MANAGEMENT, Julia (12/3/02)
44) TRANS FATS, S. Royer (2/24/02)
43) FATS IN FEEDS, R. Plamondon (2/21/02)
42) YELLOW GREASE, A. Royle(2/18/02)
41) YELLOW FAT
40) ORGANIC CERTIFICATION ISSUES, L. Owlsley (1/25/02)
39) CHICKEN GUARD DOGS, L. Owlsley (11/14/01)
38) GAPEWORM PARASITES IN EARTHWORMS,
R. Plamondon (11/13/01)
37) ADVANTAGE FOR WHOM? IS "ADVANTAGE" SAFE?
36) MANAGING COCCIDOSIS USING DEEP LITTER
35) LIST OF ANTIBIOTICS USED IN FEED
34) ANTIBIOTICS IN FEED
33) TRUER WORDS
32) ORGANIC OR...??
31) PASTURED POULTRY AUTHOR RE-EXAMINES SYSTEM
31b)RESPONSE FROM PASTUREPOULTRY LIST MEMBER
30) MILLET INSTEAD OF CORN
29) COSTS OF FEED FOR 150 CHICKS IN WASHINGTON STATE
28) INTESTINAL CONDITIONS, PARASITES, PROBIOTICS, AND TOXINS
27) FEEDING STORE-BOUGHT EGGS TO BIRDS CAUSES PROBLEMS
---FREE RANGE EGGS DON'T
26) FEED AND MOVEABLE PEN DETAILS IN PASTURED POULTRY
25) POULTRY-FEED COVER CROPS FOR SMALL PLOTS
24) NUTRITIONISTS AND FEED MILLS
23) CSA'S BECOMING POPULAR WAY OF BUYING FARM POULTRY
22) "WIVES TALES" OR "WISE TALES"?
21) PASTURED POULTRY COVER CROPS, IN DETAIL
20) KILL MITES: FOOT TRAYS APPLY D.E. TO CHIX' FEET
19) CHICKEN "POOP PATROL" IN STABLE KEEPS PARASITES WAY DOWN
18) FREE RANGE TECHNIQUES AT KINTALINE FARM
PLANT AND POULTRY CENTRE, SCOTLAND
17) SCRATCH GRAINS NEED SUPPLEMENTING WITH OTHER FEEDS
16) UPSTARTS
15) AMERICAN PASTURED POULTRY PRODUCERS MAGAZINE
14) NEW WORMERIES VIS-A-VIS CHICKENS WEBSITE
13) SALATIN LAYER RATION, ETC.
12) DIATOMACEOUS EARTH FOR DE-WORMING CHICKENS
11) THE OLD NAVY CHIEF AND THE PARROT
10) TO COMPOST OR NOT TO COMPOST (CHICKEN MANURES IN PASTURED
POULTRY)
9) SUNFLOWER SEEDS INFO REQUESTED
8) OCEAN POLLUTANTS INFO REQUESTED
7) GETTING BIRDS ACQUAINTED
6) FEED DETAILS --- MAKING YOUR OWN
5) VIGILANCE IN KNOWING YOUR SOURCES PAYS OFF
4) TOWARD A DEFINITION OF PASTURE POULTRY
3) RESIDUES TESTING NEEDED
2) ORGANIC FEED MILL IN PENNSYLVANIA
1) GUINEA HENS
-------- begin posts --------
64) RAISING NUTRITIOUS CHICKENS
H.S. Wong, April 9, 2005
General poultry raising is pretty much well researched
and documented. Poultry Breeding and Genetics by R.D.
Crawford is a good reference book to have.
If I am raising MEAT chickens (I have no experience
with layers or breeders) for my own consumption (ie
small scale), this is what I would do:
1. Select a slow growing breed. Fast growing breeds
that reach 2 kilo in 40 days or so will not have the
time to accumulate the desirable fatty acids from
grasses and plants into their meats, much less to
convert plant omega 3 to DHA and EPA. My findings
have been that chickens need to be on grass for at
least 45 days before they can start to accumulate DHA
in any significant quantities and for the omega
6:omega 3 ratio to start improving. The maximum I can
push down the ratio, without supplementation, is 6 to
1. That seems to be a natural limit (some academician
may want to do a research on this). For most of us, I
think 6:1 may be enough. With supplementation the
ratio can go as low as 2:1. The best supplement is
marine algae. For those raising organic chickens and
wish to have it all, there are marine algae farms
producing pollutant-free algae. The inclusion rate is
a total of 20gms over the last 14 days.
2. Plant a large variety of plants and grasses for
them to forage on. I have 20 to 30 varieties of
plants. Select plants high in omega 3. Traditionally
plants chosen for pasture have been those high in
protein. I am not familiar with grasses and plants in
the West, but two grasses that I have tested to be
high in omega 3 are guinea (panicum maximum) and stylo
(stylosanthes spp.), which may be found in the West.
Earlier on, I had mentioned napia (pennisetum
purpurcum), but now I would advice against it as it is
too invasive and will create management problems.
Pasture management is an entire field of study all
together. A good book to start on the subject is
Greener Pastures On Your Side Of The Fence by Bill
Murphy. The Albrecht papers by William Albrecht,
Soil, Grass & Cancer by Andre Voisin and Secrets of
the Soil, Peter Tompkins and Christopher Bird are
interesting reads and will provide other dimensions to
the subject.
Treat the soil and the grass well, as there is an
interconnectedness all the way from the soil right up
to the nutrients available in the meats and vegetables
and fruits that are grown on them. The ?qi? or "chi"
flow is continuous (my Oriental side speaking) :)
_____________________________________________
_____________________________________________
63) "GRASS-FED" CERTIFICATION IN CALIFORNIA, lizgriff at earthlink.net, November 6, 2004
We raise "free range chickens" and the term in our case
implies totally free range. Their portable coop sits out in a field full of grass
and they forage to their heart's content. I would definitely say that the [legal definition of the "free range"] term needs
to include "grass" covering the ground, with day long access, even if
it is dry grass.(seasonaly) I've heard how freely the term is used. We are ridiculously
small here in our neck of the woods, but stand by our quality and word. We have
160 acres and only have chickens and beef. Our County of Marin is just now offering
a grass-fed certification, which will clarify the term. Check with Marin Co. Ag Extension for more details. They have a great program.
_____________________________________________
_____________________________________________
62) AN IRATE 1-CHICKEN FARMER, No signature, July 2, 2004
I think that your website does not explain a lot about how to feed
one chicken. As a starter I do not even know what a pullet is and I do not have
a clue why you are saying that 17% layer ration what is that?Second of all how are
you going to feed 600 pounds of soybeans to one chicken. You need to actually tell
what you are talking about.
[Thank you. Sorry I was not able to help you. Perhaps if you would state your questions clearly, I or someone else might be able to assist. --- Chicken-Feed]
_____________________________________________
_____________________________________________
61) LAB TESTS IN MALAYSIA VS THE WORLD
"HS Wong"
hs_wong33 at yahoo.com
July 1, 2004
The situation in my country may be entirely different
from yours. In my country, we have 3 sources for lab
testing. One is labs in universities. Most univ with
an agri or animal husbandry faculty in my country will
provide tests at nominal costs to farmers and industry
stakeholders. I do my lipids test at an university
lab. The next category are labs set up by the
Government for all stakeholders in the food industry.
Here, a poultry farmer for example can send his birds
if they are sick to determine the exact pathogen
that's causing the problem. Or, we can send dressed
birds for tests on salmonella, e coli contamination.
They do these tests for free as a service to the
industry to raise standards of food safety and
quality. The last category are commercial labs and
these may be expensive. Generally, one just have to
tell them the purpose of the intended test and they
will give you a proposal - it can range from a
detailed expensive one to one that's moderate in cost
but serves our purposes. For example if you feed
antibiotics to your chickens and you wish to test for
residues in the dressed bird, you can just ask for
test on that specific antibiotic, which will be
inexpensive. On the other hand, if for marketing
purposes you intend to prove to your buyers you use no
antibiotics at all, then the lab may have to test for
10 or more common antibiotics. That may be expensive.
My background is in corporate finance and other Wall
Street kind of stuff. No relevance to what I am doing
now. What I am doing now calls for passion, eye for
detail and a deep pocket to pay for the learning
curve.
_____________________________________________
_____________________________________________
60) 15 MINUTES OUTDOORS IS NOT "FREE-RANGE"
willwyckoff@sbcglobal.net
June 10, 2004
I have been raising chickens for meat and eggs for the last three
years. In that period I have butchered three flocks for meat and am now developing
my third flock of layers. When I started, I let the chickens out of their coop
to roam at will from sunup to sundown, but cut that practice out when my egg production
dropped by twenty-five percent because the hens were laying their eggs where I could't
find them. I now keep them in the coop until 3:00 p.m. daily, then let them roam
at will. As I understand the present federal guidelines for use of the "free-range"
label, a chicken must have a minimum of 15 minutes a day outside of the chicken
house. My chickens get far more time than that and I don't truly feel that they
are free-range by any stretch of the imagination. A wild turkey or a duck has free
range, as does a pidgeon in the largest city's parks. I cannot even begin to imagine
how one could consider that a chicken with fifteen minutes to stretch its legs outside
of the chicken house could by the wildest consideration be thought of as "free-range,"
much less be defined that way under fedearal law or policy.
_____________________________________________
_____________________________________________
59) NO GOVT "FREE RANGE" LABELS; GO TO FARMS INSTEAD
Date: May 23, 2004
Unfortunately, I do not have time to give you a full explanation
of my view, but I do want to give you some of my thoughts. You say that you want
to see solid government regulation to define the term "free range". I
would propose that instead of encouraging this, that we promote personal farmer
- consumer relationships and have "customer inspected" farms. If the
customer likes what he/she sees at a local farm, then they will buy it. If they
don't like it, they will look elsewhere. Fecal factory concentration camp chicken
producers are government inspected, but the stuff they market still isn't fit to
eat. Government regulations won't solve the problem, they will only give people
a false sense of security. There's my opinion in an eggshell.
Best Regards,
Randy
SENDER = fromu2randy@hotmail.com
_____________________________________________
_____________________________________________
58) MEASURES FOR ERADICATING AVIAN FLU
"HS Wong"
hs_wong33 at yahoo.com
Feb. 7, 2004
You can "save"
your farm for the future, not for now. For now you
have to do what the Government says.
I asked how you know it is avian flu because newcastle
(sempar) will have the same signs and also, if it is a
virulent strain (jenis yang kuat) the death rate
(kadar kematian) will be the same.
To save the farm for the future, do the following:
1. make sure your farm from now on is a single species
farm. In particular, do not have ducks together with
your chickens. If there is a duck farm near your
farm, either move your poultry farm away, or have the
duck farm move away. This is because ducks are
carriers (pembawa kuman) of avian flu and most times
show no signs.
2. Make sure your farm is located further than 20km
from a bird sanctuary (kawasan perlindungan burung
liar) especially waterfowl (burung burung air).
3. Sterilise your farm. The flu virus is very
susceptiable to heat and the best method of
sterilising is using heat as follows:
a. move all organic matter to a hole - this include
dung, feathers, litter, feed, etc. All throw into this
big hole, pour petrol in and burnt it. Remember, this
include all feed that you have in your store.
b. get a blow-torch - I use one using LPG and flame
all surfaces in the barn (reban), external areas, etc.
Careful, don't end up burning the buildings down.
After that, wash off with detergent. After it has
dried, spray down with disinfectant. Note that
disinfectant works best when it is clean, it does not
work so well if surfaces are dirty with organic
matter.
4. After the above, open up all your rebans to the
sun, chop down branches that prevent sunlight from
heating the soil, etc. Leave them like that for a few
months until the outbreak is over.
5. In the interim, start a pest eradication program -
get rid of rats, cockroaches, flies, etc.
Restocking
1. If you are not into pastured or organic, consider a
closed house operation. If you are using open house
system, have netting available to prevent wild birds
from getting into the house to eat the feed and spread
disease.
2. Vaccinate your birds against all endemic diseases
in your geographical area. My understanding is that
most of Indonesia is endemic for newcastle, gumboro,
fowlpox, fowl cholera and infectious bronchitis.
Birds weakened by these endemic diseases will catch
avain flu faster and more severely.
3. Now that your government has started on avian flu
vaccination, your new stock must always be vaccinated
against the flu otherwise the outbreak will occur
again and again. Consult the vet.
4. Strenghten the immune system of your birds by using
traditional herbal medicines (jamu).
5. Start off your new chicks with a probiotic that
includes bacillus subtilis. Check with your vet.
6. Start a bio-security procedure for your farm. Write
to me off-list for details.
For your friends, if the birds are healthy, vaccinate
the birds with the field strain of the avian flu. Buy
the vaccine from a reputable supplier as there are
people taking avantage of the situation selling
nonsence. Vaccinating now will reduce the mortality.
To prevent the avian flu from becoming one that can
spread from human to human and create a disaster for
Indonesia, tell your friends to do the following:
1. If anybody has human flu, do not go near the
chickens. Stay away. Stay far away.
2. All workers must be vaccinated for human flu.
3. All workers must wear N95 masks and gloves.
4. All pig farms near poultry farms must be isolated
and secured. People and vehicles going into the pig
farm must be sterilised. Some means of preventing
wild birds from going into the pig farm must be
implemented.
This is what I can think off for now as I have just
come back from my farm all hot and sweaty.
Good luck.
_____________________________________________
_____________________________________________
57) OMEGA-3 CONTENT OF CHICKEN
"HS Wong"
hs_wong33 at yahoo.com
Sept. 27, 2003
My comment arose from a discussion I had with a
biochemist and a veterinary researcher from the local
agri. university. While they agree that ruminants can
extract most if not all, the necessary nutrients from
grasses and plants, they do not agree that the same is
true for non-ruminants. I think we will not disagree
with them on that point.
However, where there may be a point of contention is
their assertion that poultry cannot extract most of
their required nutrients from plants. They cite their
own field studies where they found that wild jungle
fowl mainly feed on fruits, seeds and nuts in terms of
plant material (which they can more readily digest),
and animals such as insects, fresh water prawns,
snails and leeches. They asserted that it is more
likely that free-range chickens have high omega 3s
from the insects and snails, etc. they eat than from
the plants themselves.
The result of the discussion was the agreement to test
my chickens for omega 3 and other fatty acids and
comparing them with commercial chickens. Arising from
this first test, we intend to do further tests to
narrow down the actual sources of omega 3, if any, -
whether plant or animals or both, and then to
formulate feeding strategies to improve the fatty
acids profile.
My comment on the difficulty of finding sufficient
food or plant sources of omega 3 in a way reflects my
acceptance of some of their arguements concerning the
availability of nutrients from plants. Here, I am
excluding seeds, fruits and grains.
I expect the results from the tests soon.
_____________________________________________
_____________________________________________
56) HOW CHICKEN MASH WAS INVENTED
"Robert Plamondon"
robert at plamondon.com
36475 Norton Creek Rd, Blodgett OR 97326
June 7, 2003
This idea is how chicken mash was invented. The early researchers discovered that if you set out a feeder of beef scrap and a feeder of grain, the chickens laid a lot more eggs than if you left out the beef scrap.
Then they discovered that if you mixed the beef scrap with ground grain, you could get them to eat more beef scrap than they would of their own free will, and this caused a higher egg production.
The third step was to junk up the mash will all sorts of el cheapo ingredients like wheat bran, increasing the fiber, unbalancing the protein, and reducing the palatability of the mash, but reducing its cost. Nobody seemed to notice that this interfered with egg production and rate of growth.
The fourth step, forty years later, was to take the wheat bran and other high-fiber ingredients back out again.
So, yes, you can sneak in stuff the chickens don't like into the feed, and yes, this works fine if you don't overdo it. My impression is, though, that with the exception of overprocessed protein supplements like soybean products and beef scrap, they like what's good for them. If they ignore an ingredient, there's probably a reason.
-- Robert
--
_____________________________________________
_____________________________________________
55) ENZYMES, PET, LADINO CLOVER - MISC FEED INFO
[Note: This post is best read from bottom up]
Chicken-Feed at YahooGroups
May 4, 2003
I need to know if Fava beans and Crimson Clover are
toxic to chickens as this is a cover crop I have planted in an area
where they will roam.
Johanna
---------------------------------
Date: Sun, 4 May 2003 11:29:55 -0700
From: "Robert Plamondon"
Subject: Speaking of Clover
Speaking of clover, I've posted an Ohio Experiment Station bulletin on the
subject to my Web site at www.plamondon.com/clover.html [Note: page does not come up --ks] . This
bulletin, from 1949, talks about the interaction between pasture quality
and feed rations. With a highly palatable, long-season pasture, such as
ladino clover, the chickens get most of their protein and all of their vitamins
from foraging, and the ration can be greatly simplified. With a grass
pasture, which is neither as palatable nor as long-lasting (once the green
color starts to fade, chickens stop eating it), the protein content of the
ration must be increased.
-- Robert
Robert Plamondon
36475 Norton Creek Rd, Blodgett OR 97326
robert at plamondon.com
---------------------------------
Date: Sun, 4 May 2003 11:27:06 -0700
From: "Robert Plamondon"
Subject: Re: Fava Beans and Crimson Clover
They'll love crimson clover. It's good for them.
Fava beans are almost certainly good for them, too. Generally speaking,
it's
hard to poison chickens unless you starve them into eating things that are
bad for them. If you offer them some kind of vaguely respectable chicken
feed in addition to range, they'll be very selective about the forage they
eat.
-- Robert
---------------------------------
From: HS Wong
Subject: Re: Fava Beans and Crimson Clover
In humans, eating undercooked fava beans gives rise to
the anemic blood disorder called favism.
HS
---------------------------------
What is PET?
From: ravithakre
I have heard of Purified Terephthalic Acid being
used in Chicken / Poultry feed as an ingredient. Can anyone tell me
what purpose it serves. Is it helpful or is this harmful for the
birds. Please give me information in this regard.
About PTA--- it is a raw material used in Polyester
and PET manufacture.
---------------------------------
From: HS Wong
To: ChickenFeed at yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sunday, May 04, 2003 6:10 PM
Coke comes in PET bottles.
Ravi, some poultry businessmen and feed
manufacturers use antibiotics as growth enhancers. To make the
antibiotics work better, you add PTA.
I use live digestive enzymes to make my chickens
absorb nutrients from feed more completely and their
growth rates are better than chickens fed on
antibiotics.
The antibiotics and PTA way is the way of big
business and scientists. Using nature (live enzymes, etc) is
the way of farmers.
HS
---------------------------------
R.A. Zacla wrote:
You must be referring to lacto-baccili. I've heard
about it's benefits even for swine and cattle, and
even as compost accelerator.
---------------------------------
From: HS Wong
Subject: Re: PTA use in chicken feed
I was referring to enzymes. For example, I sprout
mung beans to 1/4 inch only, and then sprinkle some on
top of regular feed if I need to speed up weight gain
(which is not often).
I do use lacto-baccili on day olds for the first week
to establish friendly intestinal flora fast.
I also hear a lot of good results from use of EM
(Effective Microorganisms) in disinfecting premises,
speeding up composting, returning used pastures to
"health" faster, etc.
Regards
HS
_____________________________________________
_____________________________________________
54) PREVENTING WORM PARASITES
"Robert Plamondon"
robert at plamondon.com
April 28, 2003
Earthworms are an intermediate host for blackhead and tape worms, aren't
they? But if you're growing worms in a bin and don't add any material from
your flock (or anyone else's flock), the cycle of infection is broken.
Just
don't dig your initial worms out of your chicken yard.
Since these parasites have a complicated life cycle, I don't know how long
they can survive in a worm bin. In any event, if you start out with
uninfested worms, they ought to stay uninfested if you don't feed them
anything from a livestock operation, including the dirt under the animals'
feet.
Robert Plamondon
36475 Norton Creek Rd, Blodgett OR 97326
_____________________________________________
_____________________________________________
53) DOGS N CHICKENS
Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2003
There are 25 messages in this issue.
Topics in this digest:
1. Dog/Chickens
From: Mapetras5 at aol.com
2. Re: Dog/Chickens
From: Michael Pasterik
3. Re: Dog/Chickens
From: jelly40746 at aol.com
4. Re: Dog/Chickens
From: Kim & Garth Travis
5. Re: Dog/Chickens
From: "Heika"
6. Re: Dog/Chickens
From: Mapetras5 at aol.com
7. Re: Dog/Chickens
From: Julia
8. Re: Dog/Chickens
From: Mapetras5 at aol.com
9. Re: Dog/Chickens
From: Mapetras5 at aol.com
10. Re: Dog/Chickens
From: "Marilyn Holt"
11. Re: Dog/Chickens
From: Mapetras5 at aol.com
12. Re: Dog/Chickens
From: Julia
13. Re: Dog/Chickens
From: "Heika"
14. RE: Dog/Chickens
From: "C. Johnson"
15. RE: Re: Keeping rabbits above chickens
From: "C. Johnson"
16. Re: Keeping rabbits above chickens
From: "kbdpezz"
17. Re: Dog/Chickens
From: Mapetras5 at aol.com
18. chicken cpr
From: jim cartwright
19. Re: chicken cpr
From: Mapetras5 at aol.com
20. Re: chicken cpr
From: "Gail Cross"
21. Re: chicken cpr
From: jim cartwright
22. Re: Dog/Chickens
From: "Raul C. Alcazar"
23. Re: Dog/Chickens
From: Kim & Garth Travis
24. Re: Dog/Chickens
From: Kim & Garth Travis
25. Re: Dog/Chickens
From: Mapetras5 at aol.com
Message: 1
Subject: Dog/Chickens
How do you train a dog/puppy not to kill chickens?
Kathie
Message: 2
I have heard of at least 2 ways, I have not tried either. Our dog is on a
run, and is older, so she isn't much of a problem. The dog is more
annoyed
by the birds coming right up to her house to steal dog food, she then
half-heartedly chases them away.
2 ideas to train the dog, neither sound nice:
1) Take a dead chicken, feathers and all and hang it from the
electric fence. When the pup/dog goes after it, the dog learns that
chickens are electrified, so don't mess with them.
2) If/when the dog does kill one of your birds tie the carcass to
the dogs collar and make the dog drag the thing around with it.
Personally, I don't like either of these methods, and I doubt if the
second
one would even work, the dog would probably just eat the bird. The first
may work if the dog it smart and/or is already electric fence aware.
I thought we would have a problem with cats, but our cats have been around
the chickens all their lives. Even the neighbors and stray cats don't
seem
to bother out birds. I do keep the cats out of the brooder.
If the dog is well behaved and obeys, walking with him among the chickens
and scolding/"No" training may be enough. You don't want the dog to even
chase the birds, as the stress would affect laying.
Mike Pasterik
Providence Pastures Farm
NW Pennsylvania USA
Message: 3
ALWAYS supervise the dog around the chickens. Never trust him alone with
the
birds. Knowledge of basic commands (sit/stay) helps. I've kept the dog
leashed, walking among the chickens to familiarize the dog with the birds.
Might want to pick a time that you're not press with chores. I have a can
of
coins (It's pretty noisy), and I call it my No-No can...it gets the point
across when shaken at the dog. Remember to praise the dog when he's done
good. It can be done, just patience. My dogs now help "herd" the hens back
to
the coop!
~*~*~I am My Dog's Mom ~*~*~
Owned by: Rockie G. (aka Go-me)
Reilly & Einstein
Forever in my heart Patches O'Brindle
(Until we meet again sweety)
Message: 4
Someone gave me this one on another list, it really works. I have a
coydog, so she is real hard to train not to kill. Now-a-days, we have 4
mallard ducks that wander the property and the dog only harasses them, she
does not kill anymore.
Unfortunately, this method involves the dog attacking a bird. When it
does, you wail and cry as if she/he killed one of your children. Pick up
the injured or dead bird, hold it close like a baby and really let go
with
the grief. When I did this, both my dogs, [I have a black lab as well],
put themselves in their house for a week. They haven't killed a thing
[other than mice and rats] in six months, which is a record at my place.
I imagine you would have to give the dog a chance to really bond with you
for this method to work, but it is the only thing I have found that has
worked.
Bright Blessings,
Kim
Message: 5
Ugh. This is amazingly relevant for me, since my pup of 13 1/2 weeks just
killed one of my free range laying hens yesterday. She has been around
the
birds since she came to live with me at 7 weeks of age, and has been
scolded
about chasing the birds. She has done pretty well, until yesterday. She
was in her own fenced yard, and one of the free range girls went into the
yard. I heard the chicken's distress call, and went to investigate, but
it
was too late. I took the chicken away from her, screaming in anger, and
proceeded to chase her around the yard, screeching at the top of my lungs,
smacking her with the dead chicken. Hmmm. I wonder what a professional
dog
trainer would think about that...
Only time will tell if my method was effective... :)
Heika Sample
On a Wing and a Prayer Farm
Sprague River, OR, USA
Message: 6
Interesting?
Kathie
Message: 7
> How do you train a dog/puppy not to kill chickens?
>
That's a tough one. I think a lot depends on the dog. Our older dog
is a mixed breed, husky/shepherd/coyote/akita/primitive dog/nobody
knows and she has a very strong prey drive. She has had a chicken in
her mouth twice but neither time killed or seriously injured the bird.
I think that's only because she was pretty tightly supervised--each
time we were on the scene as she grabbed the bird (came running when we
heard the squawks)--and she's pretty obedient. A loud "DROP IT!" and
she did, each time. That said, I would never trust her to have access
to the birds. When I go into their "inside" coop, which is a room of
straw bales inside a big hangar, she waits by the doorway and watches
carefully, but I'm right there. . .
Our younger dog is a German Shepherd, from German stock and plush
coated (they have a reputation for sweetness, I'm told). He definitely
has a strong prey drive for things like rabbits and ground squirrels,
but two days ago I found out that he's not so bad with chickens. I had
given the hens some scratch, and apparently didn't latch the gate
properly. Later, I looked out from the house, and there was Mocha,
lying on the ground surrounded by curious hens. When one or two pecked
at him he got up, but made no move to chase or threaten them. I ran
out there, thankful that Java was safely in the house, and tried to get
Mocha to help me herd them back into the run. He wasn't too good at
that, though--he's just a big sweet dog.
I'm sure the fact that the chickens were quite familiar to Mocha (and
he to them) made a big difference. He's been watching them through the
netting for over a year. He knows I care for them. I was just lucky
that Java was not outside. I believe breed and personality count for a
lot. I know that for particular livestock guarding breeds, they make
an effort to "socialize" the dog to the particular stock when it is a
young puppy, and that people do this with poultry as well as sheep or
goats. I don't think the dead chicken around the neck thing would
bother a dog at all, unless it's the constant ostracizing such a dog
would get from all the human members of his "pack." Most dogs love
stinky rotting carcasses! But most dogs also want to get along with
their leaders--this is why Java drops the chickens, even though she
wants to kill them.
What kind of dog are you talking about? You're most likely to succeed
with a non-predatory dog, like a Golden Retriever.
Julia in Waunakee
Message: 8
In a message dated 4/21/2003 3:01:19 PM Central Daylight Time,
blueduck at kfalls.net writes:
> I heard the chicken's distress call, and went to investigate, but it
> was too late. I took the chicken away from her, screaming in anger, and
> proceeded to chase her around the yard, screeching at the top of my
lungs,
> smacking her with the dead chicken. Hmmm. I wonder what a professional
> dog
> trainer would think about that...
>
> Only time will tell if my method was effective... :)
>
ROFL... Only because I know what you mean. I raged, something I do NOT do
and then spanked her with a wooded spoon.
My next option is to by a shock collar. I have heard they work well. You
simply watch and every time they approach the dog you shock at different
levels depending on how close they are and behaviour. Any thoughts here?
It
resembles the chicken in the fence but reverses the order a bit and
chickens
are not bound.
The dog is too sweet and too much my little boys dog to trash. She has
been
with them since they were 1 day old and never bothered she is only around
13-14 weeks too, humm, wondering at the age thing.
Kathie
Message: 9
In a message dated 4/21/2003 4:03:04 PM Central Daylight Time,
drfood at tds.net
writes:
> What kind of dog are you talking about? You're most likely to succeed
> with a non-predatory dog, like a Golden Retriever.
>
She is a rat terrier and Black lab mix. Her size is of her mom the rat
terrier but the looks of pappa the black lab. Neither of which are mine.
She has a sweet disposition and earlier would herd the chickens into the
pen
if they escaped. Now she has been caught eating one!! Argh....
Kathie
Message: 10
My experience--from more than 30 years has told me that it ain't gonna
happen. If a dog has already killed a chicken, it will likely go back for
more despite your anger. In fact, according to what I've been told, the dog
may not even relate the punishment to the killing of the bird. The only
dog I ever had success with was a puppy when the chicks were day olds and we
put them together in the same playpen. The communication between the
birds and the pup seemed to do the trick. Unfortunately, that dog was killed
before she was full grown, so we never did find out if the lesson would
carry over to the next lot of birds.
All our other dogs go after the hens and ducks and will kill them with no
provocation although they're gentle with every other animal we have
including kittens. If not killing, they will harrass them and make them
run--apparently for the sheer fun of it. After having layers around for many years,
we have reconciled to the fact that we have to keep the dogs away--it's
annoying but it's the only way to know for sure that it won't happen again.
The breed of dog may make a difference--we've had mostly labs and
retrievers, so of course it's instinct with them. But we also had a tiny shih-tzu
whose main joy in life was knowing he could make the chickens run away from
him.
Trying to teach a dog not to kill birds by giving them a bird to kill
doesn't make a lot of sense to me.
Message: 11
In a message dated 4/21/2003 4:13:48 PM Central Daylight Time,
mholt2726 at rogers.com writes:
> My experience--from more than 30 years has told me that it ain't gonna
> happen. If a dog has already killed a chicken, it will likely go back
for
> more despite your anger. In fact, according to what I've been told, the
> dog may not even relate the punishment to the killing of the bird.
Argh!
> The only dog I ever had success with was a puppy when the chicks were
day
> olds and we put them together in the same playpen.
We did that!
> The communication between the birds and the pup seemed to do the
> trick.Unfortunately, that dog was killed before she was full grown, so
we
> never did find out if the lesson would carry over to the next lot of
birds.
Hummm, I don't think so....
Kathie
Message: 12
On Monday, April 21, 2003, at 04:04 PM, Mapetras5 at aol.com wrote:
> My next option is to by a shock collar. I have heard they work well.
> You
> simply watch and every time they approach the dog you shock at
> different
> levels depending on how close they are and behaviour. Any thoughts
> here?
An e-collar may be useful. Just make sure you put the time in to teach
the dog about it properly, otherwise you can really freak out the dog.
You want to take the dog out to some neutral safe place, like an empty
dog park or fenced in area, and let the dog wander around. Watching
the dog carefully, try the lowest setting on the collar. You're
looking for just a bit of a reaction--sort of a "hey, what was that?"
where she picks her head up suddenly. That's the right level to use
most of the time.
If later on she has learned all about the collar and you give a command
and she deliberately tries something else, then you might use one level
higher. Just don't crank the thing up to max and "zap" her--you can
easily end up with a dog that's scared of the collar and can't learn
anything with it on.
I wouldn't shock the dog for having the chickens approach her--rather,
for her focussing too much on the chickens. You'd want to teach her
to ignore the birds and come to you no matter what. However, if she
were to suddenly grab a bird, then that might be a good time for a
mighty zap!
> Now she has been caught eating one!! Argh....
Oooh, boy--she was actually eating the bird? That's going to make it
tougher, for sure. Lots of dogs never figure out how to "open up" a
dead prey animal, so the food aspect never gets into it. I think
that's the rat terrier coming out, and that's going to be really
difficult. Do you really need to have the dog loose amongst the
chickens? I think she's sounding more like my older dog--not to be
trusted. If you work hard, you can train her to stay at the gate and
not enter the pen, etc, but I'll be really impressed if she'll ever let
a loose chicken pass in front of her nose without grabbing it, now that
she knows what's under the feathers!!
Sorry to be negative. Good luck to you!
Julia in Waunakee
Message: 13
Hmmm.... I have an older dog, an American Pit Bull Terrier, that has a
very
high prey drive. He has killed birds before... but doesn't now. At
least,
not too often. It has been over a year since he has done it, and the last
time was in the company of another dog. I think this was an instance of
pack mentality. We sorted it out, the two of us. He walks quite calmly
among the birds now, and will avoid the turkeys when they follow him
around
gobbling. As long as he isn't in the company of another dog, I trust him
completely. Because of my experience with him, I believe it is possible
to
retrain a dog to be at least better around poultry, although perfect may
not
be an attainable goal.
Heika Sample
On a Wing and a Prayer Farm
Sprague River, OR, USA
Message: 14
Kathie thanks for the tip i should have try this on my dalmation when he
killed the rooster thanks DJ
Message: 15
Val i just gave the bunnies poultry pullets and greens like kale scraps
etc.
My hens have a mean streak also and the bunnies learn to fight back. They
can be nasty also.DJ
Message: 16
Subject: Re: Keeping rabbits above chickens
Just wondering do your chickens and rabbits sleep in the same house
or how does that work?
Kristen
Woodhaven Farm
Message: 17
In a message dated 4/21/2003 4:25:55 PM Central Daylight Time,
drfood at tds.net
writes:
> I wouldn't shock the dog for having the chickens approach her--rather,
> for her focussing too much on the chickens.
Of course. My thought was if she focuses on them as in chases or attempts
to
attack then try the lowest until I get a response. Shouldn't take much,
please?
> You'd want to teach her to ignore the birds and come to you no matter
what.
> However, if she were to suddenly grab a bird, then that might be a good
> time for a
> mighty zap!
My idea exactly. I don't like the thing but I may try it.
> >Now she has been caught eating one!! Argh....
>
> Oooh, boy--she was actually eating the bird? That's going to make it
> tougher, for sure. Lots of dogs never figure out how to "open up" a
> dead prey animal, so the food aspect never gets into it. I think
> that's the rat terrier coming out, and that's going to be really
> difficult. Do you really need to have the dog loose amongst the
> chickens?
They are not and she is not. However they do get loose and she does get
to
the other yard. We have two back yards and the chickens are in a yard
separate still.
> I think she's sounding more like my older dog--not to be
> trusted. If you work hard, you can train her to stay at the gate and
> not enter the pen, etc, but I'll be really impressed if she'll ever let
> a loose chicken pass in front of her nose without grabbing it, now that
> she knows what's under the feathers!!
She is a very smart dog. She can even open them back screen door to come
in
and out! She is still very young too, around 4 months. So here is
hoping.
>
> Sorry to be negative. Good luck to you!
Honesty is reality. I deal with facts and this is a fact of life. We, my
family, livestock, and pets, must all coexist and it is my responsibility
as
manager of the home to figure out how to do this.
Thanks for the advice,
Kathie
Message: 18
Subject: chicken cpr
While talking with my friend,my four year old was showing her four year
old how to bath a chicken.My little helper came running to me shouting, daddy
I've done something to"squalkie'', when I rounded the corner, she was
lifeless, the chicken I mean.I look around,asking my little girl what happened.
She informed me that she was only giving"squalkie"a bath. The bird was
dead,or so close that I didn't know the difference. I picked her up, turned
her head down and depressed her chest. with each depression, I was a little
firmer. She finely through her head back and water drizzled from her mouth.
This kept me pumping for 15minutes, her eyes opened and she lifted her head
more. At that point, I wrapped her in a towel, and placed her in the nest
boxes. the next morning she was running around like nothing happened, and
two days latter she is laying. true story------Jim
Message: 19
Subject: Re: chicken cpr
This was a hillarious story. I can see it. I have 6 children and believe
me
I can see it. ROFL
Kathie
Message: 20
Subject: Re: chicken cpr
Bless you, Jim, for perservering to save that feathered life. I think
that's fabulous, and now I've learned something that just may come in
handy
someday.
Gail in MO
Message: 21
Subject: Re: chicken cpr
I was so wound up, I should of edited befor sending. but itis funny now.
some grammer errors aside
Message: 22
Subject: Re: Dog/Chickens
I keep my dogs full and satisfied. Hungry animals will take on anything
to satisfy their stomach. I don't give them raw chicken entrails or raw
chicken head or feet, not even feathers. I cook them first(except the
feathers) before I give to the dogs.
Message: 23
I had tried the chicken around the neck, the severe spankings [I never hit
her for anything else], tying my dog up, etc. But I did train a dog that
goes after prey by wailing with grief, not anger. My girl is 1/2 coyote
and 1/2 blue heeler. If your dog is bonded with you, this really does
work.
Bright Blessings,
Kim
Message: 24
I do not give them a bird to kill, but if they have the temperament to
kill
a chicken it will happen. When it does, then apply the grief
method. Dusty has killed in the past and now is safe with full grown
mallards loose in the yard. I would not leave her alone with baby chicks,
that would be tempting fate. But she no longer digs under fences to get
them.
Bright Blessings,
Kim
Message: 25
In a message dated 4/22/2003 6:36:31 AM Central Daylight Time,
alcazar at digitelone.com writes:
> I keep my dogs full and satisfied. Hungry animals will take on anything
to
> satisfy their stomach. I don't give them raw chicken entrails or raw
> chicken head or feet, not even feathers.
This may have been where our trouble started. Believe me she is a well
fed
dog. When I butchered the turkeys she found where we buried the heads. I
think that started the whole mess and she was in the first yard watching
us
in the second. She is smart, like I said earlier.
Kathie
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52) STICKY CHICKS OR STUCK CHICKS?
April 9, 2003
HS Wong
Sticky chicks or stuck chicks? Sticky chicks have gooey stuff
all over and one of the causes (the most common one) is too high humidity!
Your chicks have not lost enough "water"; hence the "sticky" stuff. On the
other hand, if your chicks are "stuck" to the internal surface of the shell
and suffocates, etc., that's due to too little humidity. They dry out too
fast and gets stuck to the membrance which prevents them from turning in
the shell, or from breaking the shell completely.
_____________________________________________
_____________________________________________
51) HEN TO ACCEPT BABY CHICKS -- HOW?
April 9, 2003
Kristine at ChickenFeed at YahooGroups.com
The only way it will work is if they have been setting close to the normal
time on fake eggs. Then you slip them in under them at night when they
are not really awake enough. Otherwise if the hen has not been setting the
chick is just a nuisance.
_____________________________________________
_____________________________________________
50) LAST DAYS OF INCUBATION
April 9, 2003
Ruth Bloch at ChickenFeed at YahooGroups.com
On day 18, take the turner out and lay the eggs on their
side, fill the reservoir, close the lid and don't open it again until the
chicks are finished hatching and dry. Then you can move them to a nice warm
brooder you should have all set up and waiting for them. I always like to
turn on the heat lamp on the 20th day so it's nice and toasty.
_____________________________________________
_____________________________________________
49) WILL CHICKENS EAT ANTS?
March 25, 2003
ChickenFeed at YahooGroups.com
"None of my poultry eat ants. Not even the guineas. We seem to have two
different kinds around here. The tiny little sweet and grease eating ants
and the larger carpenter ants."
"In the fall when the carpenter ants swarm to build new colonies, my hens
and guineas have a feast! They eat tons of them."
"All I know is the only part of my yard that doesn't get fire ants is the
chicken yard!"
"yes, they love 'em"
"Maybe your ants are tastier than mine? My ducks will eat the grubs but
nothing here eats the ant itself. Maybe it's time I got an aardvaark."
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48) TURMERIC AND GARLIC FOR CRD
March 25, 2003
HS Wong
Death from CRD I have found from experience is often
due to complications arising from other bacterial
infection as a result of weakened immune system - e
coli for example will cause death in a weakened bird
and the tell-tale signs of 'cheesy exudates' will be
found on necropsy. [C'Feed Note: Chronic Respiratory Disease, for a good discussion, see the Queensland, Australia Poultry Diseases Website]
CRD is readily treated using antibiotics though I have
found faster response from garlic and tumeric - 3 days
as opposed to 5 to 8 days for antibiotics. [C'Feed Note: tumeric and turmeric are the same thing; both spellings are correct.] In my
experience, using garlic and tumeric tends to lessen
complications from secondary infection also.
Antibiotics does not seem to have as good a protective
effect against secondary infection possibly due to
bacterial resistance, and also possibly due to the
fact that it does not help boost immune system as
tumeric would. (Asian traditional longetivity cocktail
- pound fresh tumeric and squeeze out one
tablespoon pure juice. Mix in some top quality honey
(manuka is best) and drink it once a week.)
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47) FEED ECONOMY DISCUSSION
February 23, 2003
ChickenFeed at YahooGroups.com
------------ post on Feb 23, 2003-------------
I have 40 laying chickens. Actually 34 hens. They cost me 300 lbs or
more a month.I buy laying mash at $12 per 100lbs.
My thought is can I add shelled corn which I can get for $8.00 per
100lbs. To help reduce the cost here. 200 lbs laying mash, 100 lbs
shelled corn?
Everything else to help mix different ingredients are too expensive
and just as well keep buying the laying mass.
Any other tips to help reduce cost. All is greatly welcome
---------------------Reply #1------------------------
You saved 4.00 a month!!! What does that cost your hens in lost protein??
Corn is a good source of carbs, but not a good source of protiens,
vitamins, minerals... So I guess the big question is why do you want to reduce
your costs? Are these eggs for a little side business of egg sales, if they
were laying at 50%, you would get 42 dozen eggs a month, at 1.00 a dozen, you
are covering your feed bill. If you are tight for cash and can't afford the
extra 4.00 a month, lose some of the birds. If you just want a flock of
birds and don't care much about production.....add the corn. It just depends
on your situation. Where else can you get good feed supplements, try your
local grocer, he is probably pitching out a lot of produce that is getting a
little old. Hens won't mind, especially in the winter. Restaurants do the
same thing. Set up a deal with the local business, you supply some buckets,
they fill them. That's even cheaper than corn and better for the birds.
----------------------Reply #2------------------------
I can't remember how long it has been since I could spend $36.00 a month
on
feed. I feed a ton a month. I would be happy to get laying mash at $6.00
a
bag... where do you live? Even at the ton price, my feed doesn't fall
below
$7.45 for a 50 lb bag of laying pellets. Why don't you sell some of your
eggs to offset costs? If each of your birds lay 25 eggs a month, that
would
be 900 eggs... 75 dozen. If you sold even half of those at a buck a
carton,
your birds would support themselves. If you sold a few more, you would
actually make a profit. Or, incubate a few eggs and sell the chicks.
Don't
know what kind of birds we are talking about, so I can't do the math... :)
Since I have owned my birds, I have never made a profit... however, that
makes for a wonderful tax deduction. It lowers my income by around
$6000.00, which is incredibly valuable. I wouldn't mess with the quality
of
the feed. Just doesn't pay off in the end. Might want to consider
growing
a garden for your girls... they love fresh veggies, its good for them, and
it would reduce the amount of dry feed they eat.
-------------------Reply #3------------------------------
I understand the want to reduce feed costs. A lot of talk is done about
selling eggs and that is really an easy thing. We sell our overage at
1.50 a
dozen. My feed cost is 14.85/100# We get 16-18 eggs a day faithfully out
of
20 hens and one rooster. He doesn't lay eggs but gotta keep my girls
happy. <
g> We light them in the winter so this is pretty steady. My family alone
uses a dozen a day on the average. This is going to be going up as my boys
get older too. So at present that means 30 dozen a month average.
That means if I bought my own eggs it would cost me $45 a month and we use
around 200# of feed a month, cost $30, in actuality more like 160-180#.
That
is only in feed! Pretty good deal. It also means I sell around 5-10
dozen a
month average. So I make around 10.00 to 15.00 a month. So my actual
benefit in simple terms is around $15/mo. Now this doesn't count the
benefits from fertilizer, teaching tools for my children or the just plain
companionship. I love to 'visit my girls'. I also spend another $5 on
litter a month.
Sounds good to me. Of course I still am not counting the occasional
vitamin
or the replacement chicks. Just bought 30 replacements at 1.75 each,
including shipping. I do this every other year. That is $50 and that
doesn't include the food to raise them to laying stage. I am going to
guess
around 45.00 in feed to raise.
This means my total for replacement is around $100 to $150. I will either
put the old chickens in a pot or sell them to the folks around here for
$3-4
as two year old layers. Bringing back around 50.00. If I eat a couple
that
averages still a dollar a pound for the bird and that isn't too bad
either.
So that adds around $3/MO to my cost average over two years. You guys are
welcome to check my figures. Looks like I am just about breaking even
monetarily speaking. Using Storey's figures my cost per dozen should be
around 75 cents or there abouts. This includes everything.
I did not add in the cost of housing as I took that as a total lose year.
I
think the investment was around $300. And then $130 on birds, as I bought
4
month old birds to cut time and speed production along that first year.
They
were laying in around 4 weeks.
Bottom line...First I would make sure I was getting the best cost of the
best
feed. Then second make sure you are not overfeeding. Next I would
supplement the feed with kitchen and other scraps. We give them all the
grass
clippings in the mowing months, all but three here. Don't forget to visit
them for some reason, mabey some here can explain it the lay better if
held,
stroked, and talked to on occasion. Then I would not forget to sell the
overage and count my own consumption as a profit. Here organic eggs sell
for
3.50 a dozen at the store so my $1.50 is a pretty good buy. LOL
[And later..] My daughter, the main one who feeds claims we only use around 120# a
month. She is more accurate I think. She told me she is feeding around 4 # a
day.
---------------Reply #4--------------
Hmmm, doesn't that seem like a lot of feed? I have only seven hens,
so, ~1/5 the number you have. They do not go through anything near 60
pounds of feed every month--that would have me buying a new 50lb bag
every 25 days or so...
I do give them table scraps and "scratch" mix, which is just cracked
corn and wheat berries. They're getting more scratch now that it's so
cold outside. Egg production has gone down, but they are still laying.
. .
I agree with the idea about seeking out free scraps from grocery stores
and restaurants--take that stuff out of the garbage stream (to be
packed in landfills--how dumb is that?) and give it to the chickens,
who will make lovely compost out of it if you give them plenty of
carbon-rich bedding. Then you could sell the eggs and the compost!!
Maybe you've got some mice eating your feed?
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46) WINTER WASTE
December 3, 2002
Ruth Bloch
I use the deep litter system. When it does come time to empty the litter, I apply it to the tops of my raised beds in layers where it "sheet" composts through the winter. I occasionally let the chickens in there to scratch it up and stir it around for me and I am very happy with their work! I also use it as mulch for my rose and perrenial gardens, just spread it around in layers just up to but not touching the base of the plants. Great stuff!
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45) WINTER WASTE
December 3, 2002
Julia
> Hi All,
> What the heck do normal people do with the waste during the winter?
> With
> the heat lamp on, it stays around 0C (32F) in the coop.
Hi,
I'm in Wisconsin, and our coop is also around freezing. I'm using the
deep litter system, which means that there is already probably eight
inches of mulch (shredded tree trimmings, fluffy dry leaves, a little
straw, some sawdust and a lot of wood shavings) down on the concrete
floor. I just keep adding more and more to it. The chickens' "coop"
is actually an insulated room built of straw bales and other things
that's inside our hangar (basically a metal shed pole barn). They have
a run outdoors, but in the past few days I closed it off since it's
been so cold. We finally have snow!
My husband is a woodworker (as a hobby) who likes to buy unfinished
wood and run it through a planer and a jointer to finish it. This
generates lots and lots of wonderful wood shavings--not as dusty as
sawdust, but light and fluffy. I've got big trash bags full in the
hangar and every time I go in I keep throwing more down wherever I see
the droppings. If it's not too cold, I do a little digging around to
keep everything mixed up. Theoretically the composting droppings will
generate some heat--not sure I'm seeing that.
In the spring I plan to move the chickens back outside and move their
sleeping coop (an insulated box on legs) back outside as well. Then
I'll decide if I can just let the winter bedding compost where it is or
if I should (more likely) wheelbarrow the whole thing out to the
compost bins. I haven't had a problem with odor as long as I keep
mixing in lots and lots of carbon stuff, just like any compost pile. I
only have seven chickens so I've been able to keep up with it so far.
The end of summer coop clean out produced nine wheel-barrow-loads of
the most fantastic black and fluffy compost!
I think the compost is the most valuable thing my chickens produce,
although I like the eggs, too.
Julia
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44) TRANS FATS
Alice Royle (with > arrows)
Union Point Custom Feeds
Brownsville, Oregon
Scott Royer, responding
February 24, 2002
> I am not a big fan of hydrogenated vegetable oils, We don't
> use them here
Most people are starting to get a sense that they're not very good
for you. Unfortunately, most people don't realize that they are
probably one of the single most unhealthy things that they
voluntarily put into their bodies. The US government is finally
planning on requiring trans fat content labelling as part of the
nutrition label despite several decades of heavy spending and
lobbying by the food processing and seed-oil industries. There is
long and sordid history to trans-fats that will hopefully come to an
end soon. I am a firm believer that they should actually be banned
for use in both human and animal foods. If they want to make
plastics or industrial lubricants from it, they're welcome to do so,
but it has no place anywhere in the food chain.
> As you know, we are a custom mill, so in addition to our
> own line of feeds, we make feeds folks request.
> So if they don't want to use tallow -- and being very
> familiar with a
> rendering plant I can understand that -- they need to use a
> vegetable oil.
I can certainly understand and respect your decision to carry it.
That is simply good business. What I would hope to correct, however,
is the error in judgement or lack of knowledge that leads people to
request those products in the first place. For what it's worth, I
agree completely that the conditions of rendering plants as well as
much of the rest of the slaughter and pre-slaughter conditions are
descpicable. The answer, however, is not turning to sub-standard
alternatives like hydrogenated vegetable oils.
I understand and sympathize with the cost issues too. If you are
producing your poultry for the conventional markets and competing in
that way, perhaps there's no choice but to go with hydr. oils. I
don't know, I can't pretend to know other's circumstances. If,
however, you are producing for yourself or for a direct market that
has specific standards, I seriously recommend avoiding the stuff if
at all possible.
> I can't claim to have read those particular studies. Are
> you saying that all studies on hydrogenated vegetable oils say
> that it is "extremely bad"? I am not sure about the science
> behind that claim.
I would say that yours is an understandable and healthy skepticism.
I would also suggest that you use the following links to investigate
the issue to your own satisfaction. The first one should pull up a
list of research press-releases relating to trans-fatty acids (the
bad stuff in hydrogenated oils). You won't find a single one that
came up with inconclusive results nor will you find one that
validates trans-fats as a healthy or safe food. If anyone is aware
of studies that have concluded otherwise, I would be greatly
interested. The other link relates to a lipid researcher at the
University of Maryland who has been fighting the deep industry
pockets for decades to expose trans-fats for what they really are:
low grade poison. This second link is really the more informative of
the two. The links in the yellow box near the bottom of the page are
very enlightening.
Hope this helps!
http://search.eurekalert.org/e3/query.html?col=ev3rel&qc=ev3rel&qt=trans-fatty+acid
http://www.enig.com/trans.html
Scott
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43) FATS IN FEEDS
"Robert Plamondon"
robert at plamondon.com
February 21, 2002
Basically, you don't want to put anything into the chicken feed if you don't
know where it came from. And when you find out where it came from, one of
the things you're looking for is whether everyone up and down the line was
taking care of it.
Go out behind a few restaurants and look at the grease dumpsters. The only
big difference between the garbage dumpsters and the grease dumpsters is
that the garbage is fresher, because it gets picked up on a regular
schedule....
Slaughterhouse byproducts like beef tallow probably aren't as variable as
restaurant grease, since the tallow is manufactured at the slaughterhouse
and there's money riding on having it done right, since many users of tallow
aren't cheapskates like the yellow grease users, but are using tallow
because it's the best thing for their application. You'd want to find a
supplier that's knowlegeable about tallow, stores it properly, and never
sells anything that's below grade. That's what suppliers are for.
Non-by products are probably the safest in terms of product quality, because
the producer's whole income is riding on it (rather than just a tiny
fraction, as with byproducts). But high-quality byproducts can be just as
good as far more expensive products. The trick lies in being able to tell.
It's an expert's game.
It's a good idea to leaf through the pages of poultry nutrition books to see
what's said about the individual ingredients, because many of them have
different effects on poultry than in man or other livestock. But it's also
a good idea to talk to your supplier and ask him about the quality and
variability of the ingredients. Stuff that looks good on paper isn't good
in reality unless it's been produced and handled with a reasonable amount of
TLC.
-- Robert
--
Robert Plamondon *robert at plamondon.com
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42) YELLOW GREASE
Alice Royle
Union Point Custom Feeds
Brownsville, OR
February 18, 2002
Yellow grease is recycled fry oil and other oily restaurant waste that
they don't want to pour down the drain for fear of plugging it up. It
is also illegal to pour it down the drain in most places because it is
hard on the water treatment plants. It's a common ingredient in pet
food, and is in some feeds. It is vegetable oil based.
It varies widely in quality. It can be nearly usable as human food, or
it can be rancid and full of peroxides. Peroxides form when oils turn
rancid, and can be carcinogenic. To combat that, antioxidants are added
to the yellow grease at the renderer's plant. These can be innocuous
amino acids, or less expensive more questionable things. It's like
anything else, you have to know your sources if you want to use it.
There is good stuff and bad stuff.
Around here, there is one outfit that sells much more expensive yellow
grease, and one that sells it cheap. There's a big difference in
quality and additives between the two products. We aren't using any
just now, but I expect we will carry some of the better stuff for use in
boosting fat content for special high fat diets.
There is also tallow, which is rendered animal fat. That's pretty gross.
It is sold by the same folks that sell yellow grease (but not to me).
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41) YELLOW FAT
Ali
Upstate New York
February, 2002
HELLO, I LIVE IN UPSTATE NEW YORK AND HAVE 6
CHICKEN IN A COOP. I HAVE A FRIEND WHO WORKS IN A
RENDERING PLANT AND GIVES ME BONE MEAL. MY QUESTION IS, CAN
I USE YELLOW FAT FOR MY CHICKENS AND IF SO HOW.
[Kim Salisbury replies]
Hi, Ali,
What is yellow fat?
[Ali replies]
KIM, YELLOW FAT IS A BY PRODUCT OF PROCESSED ANIMALS.
I CAN GET IT AT THE RENDERING PLANT. JIT HAS ALOT OF
USES, LIPSTICK, OIL, WHATEVER, ITS ALOT LIKE LARD. ALI
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40) ORGANIC CERTIFICATION ISSUES
Lucy Owlsley
Boulder Belt Organics, Ohio
http://www.angelfire.com/oh2/boulderbeltcsa
Lucy Goodman-Owsley,
goodows at infinet.com
And Kim Salisbury, ChickenFeed owner
January 25, 2002
Lucy:
"I personally do not like the national rule and may well not recertify and
call my food something other than organic or figure that enforcement
will be
lax and continue to use the O word."
Kim:
Do you mean to say that enforcement might be too stringent for you to keep
on being organic certified? Like the treated lumber issue? What other
things are too stringent --- can you tell us a few, please? What a shame
that such little items make it impossible to be certified! Isn't there a
way to rectify them, block them in with impermeable sheeting or something,
and get an exception?
Lucy:
I actually mean the opposite-the rules are less stringent with the USDA
than with my old certifier ( http://www.oeffa.com- they have posted
the new organic regs on their site if anyone wants to read them) [Ohio Ecological Food and Farm Association] . I have
been following more stringent rules for years. And I don't believe the
enforcement will have any teeth. They can barely cover inspections, much
less having inspectors becoming a police force at all farmer's markets
and farm stands. At this point in time it is easy to call your stuff
organic when you are not certified with no repercussions. I don't see
the USDA beefing up enforcement.
My problem with the USDA regs are many. The biggest problems I have are,
among others, the composting rules, which make no sense. They want
everyone to hot compost for, IIRC, 4 weeks with the pile(s) being turned
daily. This is pretty much impossible for the small holder to do without
hired help and/or expensive equipment (a tractor with a loader at the
very least). If compost is not treated this way than it is considered
the same as raw manure. This means the pile you have sitting around that
is over 1 year old but was never hot composted would not be useable on a
certified organic farm as of Aug. 2002.
The other beef I have is with inspection. In the past the inspector was
allowed to give the grower tips on how to make the farm better. if they
saw a problem the inspector was allowed to give the farmer ideas on how
to correct the problem. No more. The USDA feels that that would be a
conflict of interest so now the inspectors can only ask questions and
never make suggestions. I feel this will start a culture of secrecy with
the organic farmers. The USDA will also not allow any certified organic
farmer to sit on any local organic certification board again due to
conflict of interest.
I also don't like the fact that organic processed foods will be allowed
something like 5% of non organic ingredients in them and will still be
able to maintain their organic status.
These rules are being created for the big farms and corporations, not
for the small farms that gave birth to the organic movement. This
perhaps is my biggest beef of all with the new regulations
So I may not recertify but it's not because the rules are more stringent
but rather because they are getting more lax and are written for the big
guys not us small holders.
On a positive, note Eliot Coleman is trying to come up with an
independent system to "certify" small organic farmers. Right now he is
calling it "Authentic Food" and there is a lively discussion on a market
farming list (subscription info below) about this movement. Why, one
could say that the list is fostering the birth of this new food movement.
To subscribe send a blank email to
subscribe-market-farming at franklin.oit.unc.edu
Get the list FAQ at:
http://www.marketfarming.net/mflistfaq.htm
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39) CHICKEN GUARD DOGS
Boulder Belt Organics, Ohio
http://www.angelfire.com/oh2/boulderbeltcsa
Lucy Goodman-Owsley,
goodows at infinet.com
November 14, 2001
We have lots of free range chickens that we raise for meat and eggs. Arlo, our Rottweiler mix, has the job of guarding the chickens and the garden from predators and pests. He is looking guilty because he knows he is not supposed to be in the garden areas and is being told "Out of the garden" by me. He sneeks in anyway to be close to his humans and to take a nap while we work. Overall he has been a great dog. He knows not to go into planting beds and takes his guarding job seriously. We feel that he has been responsible for the fact that fewer than 30 chickens in 5 years have been taken by predators and that deer do not do much damage to the garden beds. Dogs can be a very important asset to any farm.
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38) GAPEWORM PARASITES IN EARTHWORMS
From: "Robert Plamondon" robert at plamondon.com
November 13, 2001
[NOTE: See Robert in our Online Experts]
It's true that earthworms can be an intermediate host for gapeworms, but I
don't think this a compelling argument against earthworms.
(The compelling argument against earthworms is that it's probably not worth
your time to raise them for chicken feed, with soybeans so cheap. On the
other hand, raising them for fishing worms might be lucrative. Not every
area is well-served with fresh, vigorous fishing worms.)
Gapeworms, being worms, aren't very mobile, and in many places they simply
don't exist, so no precautions need to be taken.
In areas with gapeworms, they're best controlled in the same way as
blackhead, with long-term pasture rotation where you always keep the birds
on a stretch of ground that hasn't been used in a couple of years. Low
stocking density, the use of portable houses, and the plowing of the areas
around houses that get a big manure build-up are helpful.
Like blackhead, a farm that's contaminated with gapeworms from corner to
corner will force you to give up poultry or raise them in confinement for a
couple of years. Without poultry as a terminal host, they won't breed and
will eventually die out.
The real issue is range. Earthworms on a range contaminated with blackhead
or gapeworms will themselves become contaminated; worms on clean range will
not. If you have contaminated range, you'd want to raise both your chickens
and your worms in confinement, and start with store-bought worms rather than
ones from your own soil.
Since you can't tell how infested the soil is by looking at it, the safest
thing to do is to practice range rotation on spec.
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37) ADVANTAGE FOR WHOM? IS "ADVANTAGE" SAFE?
From: "Donna Fezler" gcr at rhealiving.com
April 18, 2001
[NOTE: See Donna in our Online Experts]
I would have to see this study [Note: this refers to Bayer's own study claiming Advantage to be safe, which dosed dogs and cats three times with excessive doses.] to determine what
they described as "no adverse effects." In many of these toxicity studies
with no adverse effects, if the animal shows no outward physical signs, it is
deemed acceptable even though there may be changes in liver enzymes or
cellular conformation.
The typical model for toxicity in rats is a mere 13 weeks. [Note: Donna reported a few days ago --- "I found NO long term
toxicity studies or even a decent rat study. I would love to see its
effects on birds, but there are no studies."] The rats are
challenged at several dosage levels. Depending on who is doing the study
and who funds it, the researchers determine the safe level by which animal
exhibits physical symptoms or profound blood or cellular changes. Often
they are only looking at one issue like precancerous cells and ignoring
anything else (if we don't look for it then everything is OK). I would have
to read the protocol and the fine print.
The other BIG issue is what kind of diet were these animals on? Standard
pet food we get in the store complete with "meat by-products" and rancid
fats-poisons in their own right- or the much more rigidly controlled lab
animal diet?
These company-funded studies are not available, therefore the conclusions
are still suspect. I would put money on the animals developing a thyroid
problem or an autoimmune syndrome over time if fed standard grocery store
dog food.
Since we have had free range chickens we have had no fleas.
Donna Fezler
Note: We are exploring this issue due to our commitment to health. The chemical that Advantage is composed of is Imidacloprid, which has been used as an insecticide on our fruits and vegetables for years. It attacks the nervous systems of insects, causing death. Many claim it has no adverse effects, while many others are voicing concerns that these effects have not been studied at all thoroughly. Donna found several reports that state that the chemical may cause adverse effects in larger animals. Another entity voicing concern is the official Beet Growers association of England, which states that the safety tests for Imidacloprid are not at all substantial. Another group that is highly concerned about the use of the chemical is the honeybee keepers of France.
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36) MANAGING COCCIDOSIS WITH DEEP LITTER
Michaele Blakeley, mjb at premier1.net
Growing Things
Carnation WA
April, 2001
I've used a deep litter system with my birds since I started raising chickens. It's been quite awhile now. Management and maintenance depends upon whether it is a brooder situation or a henhouse.
For my brooder (and I've succussfully brooded up to 300 at a time) I first place a layer of chicken feed sacks on the floor of the brooder (this is a nice carbon start), food is scattered over the sacks for the first day and the chicks peck at that. By the second day it is time to put sawdust down and the feeders go out. Every day when I check on the chicks (am and pm) I look for wet litter. If I find some a scoop or two of sawdust goes over it. As the chicks get older a daily application of sawdust is needed to keep things clean. I never stir the litter and it stays dry, the chicks stay clean and healthy. The added benefit is that as the litter composts it heats the brooder up and I use less heat lamps. All feeders and waterers are set on blocks to keep them off the floor and lessen the chance of litter and feet getting into the water or food. This has to be adjusted as time goes on.
With each new flock, I repeat the same procedure. Eventually, I do have to scoop out some of the litter as the floor gets too high for the lamps.
This system has worked great for me for well over fifteen years. I've never had an outbreak of disease except for once and that was because I had someone taking care of them that did not understand the system. The birds have never been on medicated feed.
I have the brooder in the greenhouse during the fall, winter and early spring. This helps give them sunshine when it is still too cool for outdoors. As they get larger I have a door and a mini ramp for the chicks to come and go and they wander the greenhouse during the day and back into the brooder at night.
For my hens (up to 600) at a time in one house I also use a deep litter system. This never gets turned! In order for a deep litter system to work, the hens need to have a roosting pit over their roosts. The rest of the floor is covered with some sort of litter (I use straw). As the straw decomposes I add another bale. Generally that's a bale of straw every 6 weeks or so, sometimes more. The only maintenance I have is cleaning it out if it floods. Sometimes I don't even do that. Sometimes I put several bales of straw down on the wet littler and throw grain on the straw then let the chickens do the turning. The manure under the pits decomposes on it's own, doesn't smell, and becomes crumbly aged chicken manure that gets added occasionaly to our composts.
This year the litter had gotten over a foot deep and it was time to haul some out. I was able to get enough to cover a new corn area. It was rich beautiful compost. The chickens stay healthy with this system and there have been no diseases.
There are no flies and no ammonia odor. It is basically a very low maintenance and economical way of keeping healthy chickens and making wonderful compost.
As far as waterers are concerned. They are all automatic, but are placed on a wire basket which is placed on sand outdoors. Sand is also put around the waterers on a regular basis. Bacteria cannot grow in sand and that helps eliminate the possibility of spreading disease through the mud that seems inevitable around waterers.
Shirley, there are a couple of diseases that have bloody diarhea. They also have other symptoms. Get the Chicken Health Handbook by Gail Damerow. I have several diagnostic books and hers is the easiest to follow if your in need of a quick answer.
There are two strains of coccidiosis. One can infect chicks at a very young age, the other waits for the chick to be older and will also infect older birds. Don't rule it out just because they aren't the "right age".
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35) LIST OF ANTIBIOTICS USED IN FEED
From a Google Search of Newsgroups
The most common found antibiotics in poultry, beef, and canned animal foods are: Chlortetracycline, Monensin, Oxytetracycline, Sulfamethazine, and Sulfaquinoxaline. Antibiotics consumed in food over an extended period of time will build up a resistance to that family of antibiotics. If antibiotic treatment is required, the antibiotic may not be able to accomplish its ability to fight of bacterial infection due to the resistance of the immune system...
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34) ANTIBIOTICS IN FEED
By Shannon Brownlee
Washington Post
Sunday, May 21, 2000
http://www.purefood.org/Toxic/antibioticsinfeed.cfm
Lester Crawford was not actually there for the revolution in animal agriculture, but he knows the story so well he might as well have been. The year was 1949, the place was an American Cyanamid plant on the Pearl River, just north of New York City. People had been noticing that the fish swimming downstream from the pharmaceutical plant were larger than average, and chemist Thomas Jukes set out to discover why.
As Crawford tells it, the plant was manufacturing the antibiotic tetracycline, but the process wasn't very efficient. Chemists grew tetracycline-producing mold on a "mash" of grain in giant vats. After extracting only about 5 percent of the drug, they dumped the leftovers into the river.
When Jukes fed the mash to laboratory animals, the results were astonishing: Chicks grew 10 to 20 percent faster than those on plain rations. Piglets did even better. "Mice, chickens, whatever, they grew like crazy," says Crawford. Cyanamid marketed the mash as a feed booster, until Jukes determined that the active ingredient in this magical concoction was the tetracycline itself.
Jukes's discovery--that animals fed low doses of antibiotics grow bigger faster and on less food--enabled millions of farmers to get pigs, poultry and cattle to market weight at less expense, and helped America become the agricultural powerhouse it is today. But there is no free hamburger, it seems, and Jukes's discovery has turned out to have a potentially deadly downside: The more we use antibiotics, the more bacteria evolve into forms that resist them. Which means that farmers are inadvertently helping to create new and potentially deadly strains of food-borne illnesses that can't be cured by many of our best drugs.
Now we are running out of medicines that work. It's time to stop squandering drugs as precious as antibiotics to reduce the price of meat by a few cents a pound.
It's troubling to realize how long these concerns have been around. Crawford, who worked alongside Jukes in the 1960s, was among the scientists who recognized the dangers inherent in adding antibiotics to livestock feed a quarter-century ago. In the mid-'70s he found himself opposing Jukes, spearheading the Food and Drug Administration's first fight to end the use of antibiotics to promote growth in animals. The FDA lost that battle in 1980. Twenty years later, the agency is--ever so tentatively--poised to try again.
This time it has a new weapon: Scientists have finally been able to establish a chain of evidence linking antibiotics in animal feed to a particular human in a hospital bed. Until now, the powerful farm and drug lobbies have been able to exploit the lack of proof to block efforts to restrict the use of antibiotics. That may no longer work. This month, Cathy Woteki--an undersecretary in the U.S. Department of Agriculture, which historically has sided more with the farmers than the FDA--conceded that "antibiotic use in animals contributes to the [antibiotic resistance] problem . . . the agricultural community must accept part of the responsibility."
Scientists have known almost from the moment penicillin was discovered in 1928 that the more an antibiotic is used, the more quickly it becomes useless. Humans and bacteria are locked in a biological arms race: We find a drug; the germs develop resistance; we come up with a newer, more deadly weapon. Sometimes all that's needed is a minor variation on an existing drug. "All antibiotics have a limited window of utility before the bugs catch on," says J. Glenn Morris, an infectious disease specialist at the University of Maryland. "With enough time, bacteria will develop resistance to everything."
That's why doctors are always looking for new drugs--and so are farmers and veterinarians. In 1986, the FDA approved the first of a powerful new class of antibiotics for humans with the tongue-twisting name of fluoroquinolones, capable of replacing old-line antibiotics that could no longer beat the bugs. Only nine years later, in 1995, the FDA gave the go-ahead for veterinarians to begin dosing sick chickens with fluoroquinolones for the same reason: The old drugs no longer worked.
More than a third of the antibiotics sold in the United States--about 18 million pounds a year--wind up on the farm. They are used for three reasons: to treat sick animals; to prevent others housed in confined barns or coops from getting sick, too; and to make the animals grow faster. In terms of volume, most antibiotics are used for the first two reasons. Only 6.1 percent of the drugs goes toward growth promotion.
But in terms of the number of animals affected, the role of growth promotion is huge. That is because growers give antibiotics, in low but daily doses, to entire herds or flocks. Crawford, who is now director of the Georgetown University Center for Food and Nutrition Policy, estimates that 75 percent of the 92 million pigs in this country routinely chow down on feed laced with antibiotics. So do about 6 percent of cattle, 25 percent of chickens and half the turkeys.
With every dose, animals are turned into walking petri dishes, breeding strains of antibiotic-resistant bacteria. As Crawford puts it, "Low doses don't kill off bacteria--they just make them mad." How could the resistant bacteria get from animals to people? The most obvious route would be through raw or undercooked meat. But the idea that a person's infection is resistant because he or she ate an animal that had been fed antibiotics is a lot harder to prove than you might think.
That's why studies like one published last year in the New England Journal of Medicine have shifted the balance of the debate. Public health researchers from the state of Minnesota and the U.S. Centers for Disease Control reported on bacterial cultures taken over several years from Minnesota residents infected with the bacterium Campylobacter jejuni. Campylobacter lives happily in the guts of animals without a peep. But it wreaks havoc in human beings, causing an estimated 2 million to 8 million cases of gastroenteritis in the United States each year.
Ordinarily, a bout of food poisoning causes little more than diarrhea or vomiting, and maybe a day or two away from work. Antibiotics are needed only if the infection persists or becomes "invasive"--meaning it has moved into the bloodstream. That's when the effectiveness of an antibiotic can mean the difference between life and death. In 1992, the Journal article said, only 1.3 percent of the Minnesota cases were caused by strains of Campylobacter that were resistant to fluoroquinolones. By 1998, the number had risen to 10.2 percent. That's a pretty steep rise, and the researchers determined it was almost certainly because of antibiotic use on farms.
Only a small fraction of the patients had ever taken fluoroquinolones themselves; and the genetic strain of resistant bacteria found in a significant number of the samples matched the genetic strain found on a variety of chicken products purchased at local grocery stores. Out of 91 chicken products, 80 were contaminated with Campylobacter. Twenty percent of those bacteria were resistant to ciprofloxacin, a fluoroquinolone that is needed to treat invasive gastroenteritis in humans.
....Then there's DT104, a particularly nasty strain of salmonella that is rampant in Europe and has begun to show up in the United States. DT104 can blow off several antibiotics, and it is twice as likely to land you in the hospital as less virulent strains. The National Chicken Council does not appear to think any of this is a problem. After the Minnesota paper came out, the council issued a press release noting that "properly handled and cooked chicken product would be free of Campylobacter." Fair enough. But by now, most Americans have heard that they are supposed to cook meat until it's charred. ....Whatever the reasons, there are 78 million cases of food-borne illness in this country every year, 5,000 of which are fatal.
Besides, undercooked meat is not the only route bacteria can take from farm to human. Last month, the New England Journal of Medicine reported the case of a 12-year-old boy who came down with a nasty case of salmonella that was resistant to no fewer than 13 antimicrobial agents. ...."We are all in one great big gene pool," says the University of Maryland's Morris. "From the point of view of bacteria, you can't say the hospital, the farm and the community are separate places."....
There are bacteria that can resist practically every antibiotic, and the drug companies have very few new ones ready for market. There are only so many ways you can attack bacteria, since they are simple organisms with few moving parts. In the past five years, the FDA has approved exactly two really new antibiotics (a handful of others were approved, but they were variations on existing drugs). One of them, Synercid, at first seemed to be something of a wonder drug--it can treat strains of bacteria that are resistant to vancomycin, one of the most powerful antibiotics now in use.
But Synercid's days may already be numbered because a closely related drug has been used on animals since 1974. Bugs that are resistant to that antibiotic, it turns out, are also resistant to Synercid. ...The highest rates of resistant bacteria are found in middle-class suburbanites... But while patients and doctors can learn not to abuse antibiotics, consumers don't have much choice about how their meat is raised.
Where has the FDA been in all this? When it lost the fight against antibiotics in feed in 1980, Congress wrote language into an appropriations bill threatening to suspend the agency's funding if it persisted in its attempts to limit the agricultural use of antibiotics. Now, the FDA is ready to try again, and this time there's reason to hope it might just pull it off. The agency has the backing of the CDC and the World Health Organization; last month [i.e., April, 2000] the General Accounting Office released a study of antibiotic use in agriculture recommending that the FDA and other federal agencies work together to come up with a sensible plan.
The FDA has already done that. What it proposes is a ranking of new and existing antibiotics according to their importance to human health. Drugs like the fluoroquinolones and Synercid would be in the most protected class, restricted to human use. Other drugs could be given to sick animals or to prevent disease among animals, but not put into feed for growth promotion. The third class of drugs, which have little value to human medicine, such as the topical ointment Bacitracin, could be widely available to farmers.
The agency is moving very slowly, trying to forge a consensus between public health officials on the one hand and industry on the other. Already drug companies are getting the message. "We're not seeing many companies coming in with applications for [low-dose antibiotics] use any more," says Stephen F. Sundlof, director of the FDA Center for Veterinary Medicine. "I think they realize the regulatory hurdles are going to be higher because they are exposing a lot more animals to the drug." Others who have gone through the antibiotic wars are not so sure. "The industry is very powerful," says Abigail Salyers, a microbiologist at the University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign. "Unless they go along to some extent, the fight could be ugly." But not nearly as ugly as the possibility that researchers like Crawford fear most--the possibility that in the fight between bacteria and antibiotics, the bugs will one day get the upper hand.
Shannon Brownlee is a freelance writer specializing in health and science.
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32) TRUER WORDS:
I'm saying that "Those who love sausage or the law shouldn't watch
either one being made" could be extended to [poultry] breeding, as well.
----- Robert Plamondon
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31) ORGANIC OR ... ?
Thu, 1 Feb 2001
"Robert Plamondon" robert at plamondon.com
My beef about the organic movement is that it started out as a producer
movement centered around healthy, productive soil, and somewhere along the
way
it seems to have mutated into a consumer movement centered around the fear
of
chemicals.
I'm an adherent of the first school of thought. If you focus on healthy,
productive soil, you're not going to have much use for chemicals.
Pesticides,
herbicides, and chemical fertilizers tend to kill off earthworms and soil
microbes, which are the organisms you rely upon to keep your farm
productive.
So this whole class of chemicals strikes you as being irrelevant, and you
rarely find a circumstance where using them makes any sense at all.
The thing that's wrong with conventional agriculture isn't what it does to
the
FOOD, it's what it does to the LAND. Not much of the chemicals end up in the
food to trouble the consumer. It stays on the land, poisoning the
environment -- and the farmers.
Somewhere I read a blurb on the advantages of sustainable agriculture. A
farmer was quoted as saying, "A couple of years after switching to
sustainable
methods, the songbirds came back to my farm." His chemical use had killed
countless songbirds and other creatures, but he probably doesn't deserve
credit for killing a single consumer. The land is taking most of the
punishment.
I met a worker at a local testing lab at a Farmer's Market. She told me that
they rarely detect pesticide residues in any food samples.
The food that comes from conventional agriculture, though far from tasty and
not as nutritious as it ought to be, isn't bad when you consider the price.
Food is amazingly cheap these days. The average consumer only spends 10% of
his income on food, and that includes processed and convenience foods. In
1950
it was something like 25% of income, and apparently it was a whopping 50% of
income in the 1920s. Not surprisingly, nutritional deficiencies were common
in
the 1920s, stunting or crippling millions of children.
When selling eggs at the farmers' market, I'm continually meeting consumers
whose beliefs about poultry consist largely of someone's self-serving lies.
I'm constantly being asked about hormones. The only hormone that was ever
used
to any great extent in poultry (DES) was banned in the U.S. the year I was
born. They look at misleading pictures on other people's egg cartons and are
convinced that the eggs come from free-range hens, when in fact they are
kept
in close confinement. They're convinced that hens are kept under bright,
24-hour light and lay eggs until they die of exhaustion.
People are making money on these lies. They're pushing their slick
magazines,
soliciting contributions for their animal-welfare organizations, or selling
their crappy confinement eggs on the basis of these lies. It really, REALLY
bugs me. And they're focusing the attention of the consumer on a total
fantasy
rather than on the miserable state of the land.
I'm a lot more concerned about the land than I am about, say, food safety,
which I consider to be pretty good, considering. My current theory is that
the
ordinary feed ingredients available on the market are more than adequate as
chicken feed, provided that the chickens also have access to pasture.
Pasture
seems to be the critical ingredient. Our broilers seem to be tastier when
raised on lush spring pasture than dry summer pasture, for instance.
On the topic of, "Where does quality come from?" it certainly seems that
pasture quality is more important to the taste of broilers and eggs than
details of the mixed ration. We use very ordinary feed that probably isn't
any
better than what Foster Farms or Willamette Egg use, but our broilers and
eggs
taste far better than theirs. We have customers who have switched from
certified-organic confinement-chicken eggs who insist that our eggs are the
best they've ever tasted. So I guess that certified-organic feed doesn't
guarantee good flavor. We've had similar comments about the broilers,
including one gourmet customer who compared them favorably to anything he'd
encountered in a gastronomic tour of France. This strikes me as evidence
that
it's not the contents of the feed sack that's the critical element, but
pasture quality. To my way of thinking, this is great news, since it helps
keep me focused the land.
If I were more politically inclined, I suppose I'd try to buy only grains
from
politically correct growers, but the fact is that I believe in the
inevitability of sustainable agriculture. I believe that it can produce
grain
just as cheaply as conventional agriculture -- in the long term, more
cheaply.
It will take cheap sustainable grain to pound the stake into the heart of
chemical agriculture. Since I don't believe that certified organic grain
will
make my eggs taste any better, and I don't think my customers will be eager
to
pay for the extra time and expense it would entail, I don't buy it.
-- Robert
36475 Norton Creek Rd, Blodgett OR 97326
Voice: (541) 453-5841 * Fax: (541) 453-4139
Free-range poultry site: http://www.plamondon.com
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31) PASTURED POULTRY AUTHOR RE-EXAMINES SYSTEM
[See Andy's wonderful post, "Pastured Poultry FAQ" in our Pastured Poultry section.]
Wed, 23 Feb 2000
"Andy Lee & Pat Foreman" Goodearth at Rockbridge.net
Hello fellow list members,
After re-reading the FAQ I've decided I can no longer support pasture
poultry as being environmentally sensitive, economically viable or socially
just, at least not in the way it is being practiced now.
If we are using twice as much land to grow grain, that's not ecologically
defensible.
If we are putting our chickens in minimal shelter during all kinds of
weather, that's not humane.
If we are working our butts off to make this sort of system work, then
that's not sustainable.
In my book CHICKEN TRACTOR, I repeated the "30% feed savings on pasture"
myth. I regret that, and I will print a retraction in the next issue.
This coming season I will do my own research, on my own farm, so that I know
what I am talking about and can speak the truth in the future. I know it is
possible to design a pasture-based poultry system that is more sustainable
that what I am doing now. If any of you have ideas to share please let me
know.
Thanks,
Andy Lee
31b) Response from PasturePoultry at Onelist.com listmember
Wed, 23 Feb 2000
Oak Moon Farm knorek at internet1.net
Hi Andy,
Quite a bombshell! I must admit having my enthusiasm temporarily dampened, but
after some serious pondering, I must respectfully disagree on your points:
> If we are using twice as much land to grow grain, that's not ecologically
> defensible.
I assume your are saying that for one acre of grain grown, one acre of pasture
is required to run it through chickens (when the grain is used for poultry
feed). I do not know enough to argue this point. I will assume that it is
correct, for the sake of this discussion. In absolute terms, it may not be a
defensible practice. However, relatively speaking, it is infinitely better
(environmentally-wise) to raise poultry on pasture than in confinement. The
system may need to be tweaked to make it a absolute statement, but we are on our
way.
> If we are putting our chickens in minimal shelter during all kinds of
> weather, that's not humane.
>
Chickens only require minimal shelter. Granted, we suffer from routine extremes
in weather, and the chickens suffer also. However, a pasture raised chicken
(with minimal shelter) is still in a more humane environment than its
confinement cousins.
> If we are working our butts off to make this sort of system work, then
> that's not sustainable.
>
I know of no business where one can succeed without working one's butt off.
This includes farming! Working one's self to the point of exhaustion, family
and marital stress, etc., is another matter. It is very easy to design a
pastured poultry model that leads to the latter. Our challenge is to focus on
optimizing the return for working our butts off, but only after we have thought
the process through...over and over again. And a continuing challenge is to
modify the process after learning from our mistakes (and the mistakes of
others).
Andy, the points that you make are valid, in both absolute terms and relative
terms. However, they must be taken in the following context...pastured poultry
systems, for their shortcomings, are still infinitely better than the industrial
confinement model currently being foisted on the environment and the consumer!!!
Do we need to do better? YES!
Can we do better? YES!
Should we give up? NO!!!!!!
Wow, and I thought that this was going to be a routine day! Thank you, Andy,
for this opportunity for introspection.
Peace,
Jack
************************
30) MILLET INSTEAD OF CORN
Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2000
From: Jeff Mattocks - jeff at fertrell.com
[NOTE: See Jeff in our Online Experts section]
Milo, Millet, and Sorghum grains are a very good feed for laying hens (only). These grains tend to be high in tannins which are Polyphenols. The bottom line is that these tannins can and will decrease body weight gains in young developing poultry. I would recommend not to exceed 30% of the prepared grain mix with these types of grains.
Developing Poultry
None of these grains should be used for developing poultry unless protein adjustments are made. They should not be used in conjunction with other small grains in the same mix.
If you have additional question please feel free to ask. You may also contact at:
The Fertrell Co.
Ph: 800-347-1566
Jeff Mattocks
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29) COSTS OF FEED FOR 150 CHICKS IN WASHINGTON STATE
Michaele Blakely mjb at premier1.net
Feb. 18, 2000
This is a flock started in August and pretty dry.
> 150 chicks 97.00
> 250 lbs. broiler starter 53.95
> 900 lbs. broiler grower 190.26
> 500 lbs. broiler finisher 98.50
> processing at 16 per hr. at $20.00/hr 156.20
> packing at 32 per hr. at $20.00/hr 78.00
Total 673.91
125 birds at 5.5lb at 2.35 lbs 928.13
> These birds were on pasture, but allowed free-range during the last 3
weeks to forage. I have larger and healthier flocks when on cover crops, a
mixture of oats, legumes, and vetch seems to be preferred by the birds,
and Dutch clover is next.
So food conversion is 1lb meat to 2.6lb feed. It is organic feed. Nothing
else is added.
************************
28) INTESTINAL CONDITIONS, PARASITES, PROBIOTICS, AND TOXINS
Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2000
From: "Donna Fezler" gcr at rhealiving.com
[NOTE: See Donna in our Online Experts]
Probiotics introduce the good bacteria and may be used without worry of
infection. I don't know of any good studies but I do use it, especially in
stress conditions which will precede a parasite infestation I still would
wash my hands because any bacteria can be a problem in the wrong place.
I have lots of room, feed garlic (it is also high in selenium which is an
immune booster and a natural antibacterial and antiviral), and use DE. [Diatomaceous Earth] The
DE definitely controls flies. We know the difference in less than a week.
Ivermectin has been shown to be toxic to rheas and ostriches so I don't have
that choice and the chickens eat what the rheas eat. I strongly believe
that the bugs are opportunists looking for a free lunch. Hexane extracted
soy meal appears (no double blind study) to cause the breakdown of the baby
rheas' intestinal wall which provides the free fatty acids the protozoan
need. I worked for 3 years on that problem before I realized I had to stop
treating the parasite and start boosting the immune system.
The toxin detoxification competes with the rebuilding mechanism for the
available sulfur. If there isn't enough the body can't rebuild fast enough
and the area under assault (in this case the intestinal wall) breaks down.
Once that happens the cell debris itself becomes a toxin and something has
to clean it up. These is where the parasites thrive. Keep the gut intact
with a stress-free environment, essential fatty acids, and ample
supplementation and/or fresh wholesome food and the parasites won't be able
to compete with the good flora.
************************
27) FEEDING STORE-BOUGHT EGGS TO BIRDS CAUSES PROBLEMS---FREE RANGE EGGS DON'T
Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2000
From: "Donna Fezler" gcr at rhealiving.com
These birds are actually for an experiment comparing free range eggs and
grocery store eggs as food. I already know that in baby rheas we get turned
legs and other leg problems when I use grocery store eggs. This will be a
controlled study, and I wanted to use half Cornish cross because of all its
inherent growth problems and also a hardier chicken. I still want something
worth eating at the end of the study.
************************
26) FEED AND MOVEABLE PEN DETAILS IN PASTURED POULTRY
Date: Fri, 27 Aug 1999
From: "Robert Plamondon" robert at plamondon.com
RE: Day Range> Pasture pens means the birds live in a small (typically> 10x12-foot) pen that> is moved to a fresh spot each day or twice a day. The advantages are the> 100% coverage of ground for graze and manure spreading, the relatively low> cost per pen, the almost 100% protection from predators, and the lack of> need for perimeter fencing of any kind. The detriments are the amount of> labor required to carry water and feed to the birds once or twice, or even> three times daily, and the moving of the pen. The pens are bulky,> birds get> crushed, backs get thrown out, tempers get frayed, and the older> we get, or > the steeper our land, the less we like moving those darn pens so> often.
We don't have any of these problems. Some points:
1. A 10x12 pen is too large. An 8x8 pen is easier to move, can be built outof cheaper materials, and all the lumber can be put in a full-sized pickupwith the tailgate up.
2. The pens are hard to move and crush birds because they're designed wrong.The front and back walls should be ON TOP OF the skids, not dragging on theground. As soon as the back wall is off the ground, the pens become easy tomove. As soon as the back wall is off the ground, the birds no longer getcrushed. to keep them from popping out, extending the chicken wire down toground level works, but a better plan is to hem a chain into a plastic tarpand use it as a weighted curtain across the gap. You could convert existingchicken tractors by nailing a two-by-four at the bottom of two of the sidesto create skids, and then doing something to keep the birds from poppingout. This would raise the front and back by only 1 1/2", which really isn'tenough (to my way of thinking), but it would convince you.
3. Hills are good. It's easier to move pens downhill than up. We start atthe top with chicks and move the pen down the hill by hand with theassistance of gravity. When the pens are empty, we pull them uphill by tractor. But our pens are easy enough to move that there's no problemmoving them uphill if we get to the bottom before the birds are ready toprocess.4. Carrying water is too time-consuming. It almost always can be avoided.1/4" O.D. drip tubing is cheap and very strong. We have a stock tank at thetop of our hill that we fill from a tank in our pickup truck once a week.We have a feeder system of 1/2" poly tubing going to garden hose or driptubing. Not having a water bucket on the house makes the house easier tomove, and the birds are healthier now that they never run out of water. Ifthere's always water, they never fight over it. Nobody should carry wateraround in buckets. If you don't have a convenient hill, all you need is aplatform elevated to a height a couple of feet greater than that of achicken tractor -- or a pump.
And,> if you are growing any significant number of birds you will need a lot of> these pens, so suddenly the cost adds up to quite a bit. Also, birds get> smothered, get wet and chilled and die, or die of heat stress, and they> often die from mechanical injury during pen moves. I can always tell the> carcass of a pen raised broiler by the scratches on its back or the breast> blister.My impression is that pastured poultry growers often use grossly inadequatefeeder space and this almost forces them to skimp on feed. The standard inindustry (which uses expensive automatic feeders and would skimp on them ifthey could) is three inches of feeder space per bird up to seven weeks, andfour inches thereafter. Given a trough that the birds can use both sidesof, that's eight birds per foot to seven weeks and six birds per footafterwards. A 90-bird house should have three to four four-foot troughs,yet I keep hearing of people trying to get by with only one!
The other issue is the amount of feed. If you see an empty trough, youdon't know whether you underfed the birds by one grain or ten pounds.Empty troughs are bad news. You can keep the birds grossly underfed andthey will look healthy, but only the ones at the top of the pecking orderwill grow at a normal rate. The rest will be runts. And of course underfeeding leads to fighting at the feed trough. We never see scratches when processing our birds. We' |